Freedom of religion applies to belief AND practice - Reader comments at The New York Sun

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Reader comment on:
Oregon Legal Battle Ignites Debate on Circumcision
in response to reader comment: Absolute freedom of religion applies to belief only, not to practice.

Submitted by Ubu Walker, Sep 25, 2007 13:36

>There are many Rabbis who will welcome the boy into the Jewish faith...

Firstly, all Conservative and Orthodox rabbis, plus the overwhelming majority of Reform and Reconstructionist rabbis require ritual circumcision as part of the conversion. So while some more liberal rabbis might not question whether a boy was circumcised, the vast majority will. What happens when this boy wants to marry an Orthodox or Conservative girl (or wants to become an Israeli citizen)? He will need to be recircumcised at the very minimum, and might have to undergo another conversion. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew

>Absolute freedom of religion applies to belief only, not to practice.

Your knowledge of the law is laughable, and what you assert as the law is really wishful thinking.

Under the Free Exercise Clause, a law that burdens religious practice need not be justified by a compelling governmental interest if it is neutral and of general applicability. However, where such a law is not neutral or not of general application, it must undergo the most rigorous of scrutiny: It must be justified by a compelling governmental interest and must be narrowly tailored to advance that interest.

For this reason, almost all States exempt from prosecution the legitimate religious use of alcohol and peyote or other drugs, and even allow ritual slaughter of animals for sacrifice or for Kosher purposes. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Lukumi_Babalu_Aye_v._City_of_Hialeah

>The crime is called "mayhem". It is a felony.

Firstly, Mayhem is no longer a felony in most jurisdictions. Secondly, ritual circumcision have been traditionally exempted from common-law Mayhem jurisprudence. In fact, in one case in 12th/13th Century England, a Jew was found not guilty of Mayhem by a Jury.
See
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZesajGsCo3cC&pg=PA341&lpg=PA341&dq=mayhem+case+law+circumcision&source=web&ots=yexsA9XCgh&sig=QfXQ_Fq46LRxVIZQtYhqMDSOWZo#PPA341,M1

I'm guessing that you believe abortion should be outlawed under your made-up mayhem jurisprudence as well? (I'm assuming you support abortion rights, by your rhetoric)

>No one is forbidding the boy to convert to Judaism.

The flaw in your argument is that you believe that since some 'progressive' rabbis allow conversion without circumcision, that all other rabbis should (or could) as well. At the very least, not allowing circumcision would prevent Conservative and Orthodox Jews from being considered Jewish by the majority of Jews and the State of Israel. Such a prohibition would be unduly burdensome on Jewish people, and I am sure that many Jews would feel that their right to practice their religion was being violated, since many consider it a central commandment of the religion.

>anything that always harms and sometimes kills Jewish babies is anti-Semitic.

Riding in a car can harm or kill Jewish babies too. Circumcision is forbidden under Jewish law if it would grievously harm or kill the child. Judaism values life above everything else.

The reason I find anti-circumcision talk anti-semitic is because the rhetoric closely mimics historical accusations of blood libel (ie Jews killing children and using blood in matzah).
The rhetoric also denies the special status that Christian and Muslim nations have afforded Jewish religious practices for centuries and tacitly acknowledges the right of a nation to prohibit conversion to Judaism.

Commenting that "Christian children can wait until they're 18 to drink the wine if necessary to save Jewish children..." underlies your true motivations in this matter.

>Submitted by Child Protector

I find your alias interesting, since you believe protecting children to be tantamount to anything else, including religious liberty and other first amendment rights. Our courts have held again and again that protecting children is extremely important, but protecting children must not come at the expense of putting aside our fundamental rights. For example, Courts have routinely struck down laws preventing the sale of ultra-violent video games to minors, since doing so would be so overbroad that, in effect, ban their sales to adults.

The problem with banning circumcision is that such a law would be too constitutionally overbroad. Would circumcision be allowed for medical reasons, such as when a foreskin is too tight? Would there be an exception for religious reasons? Could adults be circumcised? Failure to include either of these would doom a law.

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Other reader comments on this article

Comment	By	Date
For me forced circumcision is just an abhorrent business. 10 minutes for 180 ?$! Its an massive sexual manipulation. Based... [MORE]	Peter	Oct 8, 2007 14:23
This battle is not about religion, freedom of religion, the right to follow certain religious practices.....it is the father's desire... [MORE]	silver	Oct 3, 2007 02:01
Circumcision is an irreversible operation. The boy is twelve years old. Wait until he is eighteen and has the chance... [MORE]	Stephen	Sep 19, 2007 20:46
The courts should be wary of any allegation made by James Boldt, the man who wants to have his son... [MORE]	Michael Glass	Sep 19, 2007 19:28
Just to clarify, FGM or Female Genital Mutilation, including Female Circumcision, has been banned by a federal law for 10... [MORE]	Jay	Sep 19, 2007 11:35
In the Middle Ages Jews were said to kidnap Christian children, circumcise them, and even sacrifce them, drinking their blood.... [MORE]	John Geisheker	Sep 19, 2007 11:06
Somehow I'm not suprised that the executive director of Doctors Opposing Circumcision will make such an Anti-Semitic comment to this... [MORE]	Eileen	Sep 25, 2007 10:46
"What he's saying, in other words, is that now anti-Semitism can be justified because Jews seem to be acting in... [MORE]	Hugh	Oct 7, 2007 02:21
The commonsense solution to this legal wrangle is to wait till the boy is 18. Then the boy can decide... [MORE]	Michael Glass	Sep 19, 2007 10:10
"Surely a parent has the same authority to have a child's vision corrected or a birthmark on his face removed... [MORE]	Laura MacDonald	Sep 19, 2007 09:19
Americans are insane with their obsession of cutting the genitals of children! [MORE]	johndoe	Sep 19, 2007 01:13
The amici are misguided in representing circumcision as a medical decision. There are very few legitimate medical reasons to circumcise.... [MORE]	Ron Low	Sep 19, 2007 00:38
male circumcision should not be permitted on constitutional grounds because many states have passed laws banning female genital mutilation The only... [MORE]	Dan	Sep 19, 2007 00:37
It is fundamentally horrifying to remove sexual tissue from a nonconsenting female unless absolutely medically necessary. This would be the... [MORE]	Spacediver	Sep 18, 2007 22:48
If this was a daughter being considered for a religous circumcision, there is no doubt that it would be struck... [MORE]	Dan	Sep 18, 2007 22:39
A child should have a right to an intact body. Circumcision is barbaric, and religion is organized ignorance. [MORE]	Barrry	Sep 18, 2007 21:57
Seriously, just wait til he's 18. [MORE]	Aaron	Sep 18, 2007 19:16
In 2006, Judge Jordan Kaplan (Cook County, IL) ruled that the mother of an 8 year old boy could not... [MORE]	Dan	Sep 18, 2007 18:17
'Though studies have shown less incidence of sexually transmitted disease in circumcised men, Mr. Geisheker contends that circumcision is "non-therapeutic."'... [MORE]	Hugh Young	Sep 18, 2007 17:26
There primary issue here should be, what does this boy really want? Doesn't this boy need his own lawyer to represent... [MORE]	Butrg	Sep 18, 2007 14:02
This should not be up to the father. If the son wants this, he hsould wait until he is 18.... [MORE]	Jackie	Sep 18, 2007 09:28
And, er, "Jackie", you DO have a basis to comment on this? As the proud owner of a penis, I find... [MORE]	jvon	Sep 18, 2007 17:10
If the son wants it done, then let him have it done. Waiting till 18 does nothing for him. It... [MORE]	Joe	Sep 18, 2007 21:54
"You don't mention smegma. Its smells, and is always given off by the foreskin. I for one would not want... [MORE]	Tom	Sep 20, 2007 11:58
jvon: "As the proud owner of a penis, I find it highly unlikely that the foreskin is more sensitive than... [MORE]	Hugh	Oct 7, 2007 03:39
There are a lot of allegations flying around about this case and the court needs to find the truth in... [MORE]	O'Hara	Sep 18, 2007 08:25
Sir : I support the Jews and Israel in their fight for survival. Circumcision, male and female, appear to produce the same... [MORE]	Douglas Wagner	Sep 18, 2007 07:07
This child should be spared this 'ritual' based on the fact that IF done in a hospital setting, it will... [MORE]	Laurie	Sep 18, 2007 06:59
This, without a doubt, represents serious child abuse as practiced by our so-called intelligent culture. When will we discontinue the... [MORE]	Anthony D'Auria	Sep 18, 2007 12:27
In order for the boy to celebrate his Bar Mitzvah on his 13th birthday...and in order for the boy to... [MORE]	Ubu Walker	Sep 18, 2007 19:19
If as the Jewish community usually does this would have been done after 7 days, This boy is 12!! Leave... [MORE]	Bob	Sep 19, 2007 04:27
For 10 years now it has been illegal to circumcise little girls in this country, even if the parents are... [MORE]	Dan	Sep 19, 2007 10:20
Firstly, the government will only interfere with religious choices if there is no less harmful alternative means to effectuate important... [MORE]	Ubu Walker	Sep 19, 2007 14:24
Ubu Walker asserts: "In order for the boy to celebrate his Bar Mitzvah on his 13th birthday...and in order for the... [MORE]	Child Protector	Sep 25, 2007 10:02
>There are many Rabbis who will welcome the boy into the Jewish faith... Firstly, all Conservative and Orthodox rabbis,...	Ubu Walker	Sep 25, 2007 13:36
"Your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins." Substitute "knife" and "genitals". Children need freedom of religion... [MORE]	Hugh	Oct 7, 2007 03:51

Reader comment on:Oregon Legal Battle Ignites Debate on Circumcisionin response to reader comment: Absolute freedom of religion applies to belief only, not to practice.

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Comment on Oregon Legal Battle Ignites Debate on Circumcision

Reader comment on:
Oregon Legal Battle Ignites Debate on Circumcision
in response to reader comment: Absolute freedom of religion applies to belief only, not to practice.